The Handshakr Huddle - Season 3: Episode 5 with Karl Frankeser CEO of Metavshn

On the latest episode of the Handshakr Huddle podcast, Leon has a conversation with Karl-Heinz Frankheser, the CEO of Metavshn. His company provides innovative solutions to complex billing and operational challenges faced by telecommunication companies. Karl expresses his disappointment with the lack of innovation in the industry and the high cost of solutions. The two also discuss the difficulties encountered by the telecom industry and the need for a renewed approach. Karl highlights the significance of introducing younger talents and adopting a technology-focused strategy. Additionally, he shares his personal story of being a young CEO and his interests outside the business. Lastly, Karl explains how Metavshn's omni-provisioning solutions can work with any operator anywhere.

Transcript

Leon Hardwick (00:00:06) - Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Handshake Huddle. This week, we have Karl-Heinz Frankhauser from Metta Vision. Karl is one of the most charismatic CEOs I've met in telco for a long time, so really wanted to get him on the pod. Um, Carl, welcome.

Karl H (00:00:26) - Hi. Hi, everyone. Thanks a lot, Leon, for having me on your podcast today. Really, thanks a lot for that intro.

Leon Hardwick (00:00:34) - No worries. I'm really looking forward to it. So, um, Karl, we met in the digital transformation world hosted by Tim Forum in Copenhagen. We were both on like, a startup alley. Yes, I was. I was super impressed with you and your company, your pitch that you. That you did. We all had to do a two minute pitch. Yeah, that in a minute, because it was super challenging. It was what I want to know. And I think what our telco and tech folks will want to know in particular is a bit about how you see the industry.

Leon Hardwick (00:01:12) - I hope this doesn't offend you, but you're one of the youngest CEOs I've met. Um, and I think that that injection of sort of creativity and youth and stuff really helps the industry. So I want everybody to get to know you. So we'll start with your background and your journey to getting to become the CEO of Meta Vision. So give us a little bit of a a view of where you started and how you got to the point you're at right now.

Karl H (00:01:39) - Yes, absolutely. Again, it was it was really great to to have met you at the event. Um, I still am a firm believer that in-person events are really the place to be in any kind of industry. Yeah, that's how things like that. The podcast today Come. Come to me, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. So thanks a lot for for that introductory question. Um, I've had kind of an interesting ride in the telecom space in the last few years, so I started as an apprentice of commerce in a telecom operator in Switzerland back in 2015 when I was 14.5 or something like that.

Karl H (00:02:17) - Um, yeah, there I started with mundane tasks, shall I say. Administration and technical support was helping customers with their internet lines and mobile phones and stuff like that. Um, and yeah, slowly I progressed. I've seen a lot of aspects of the operator managing the data center, managing the Pops and everything. Um, I must say in general, I'm a really curious person and I like doing things more than studying them. Um, I think that's something that, that kind of unites us in a sense. You're also a doer. You also have a really interesting background. And yeah, after this apprenticeship, I left for a year because my dream was going to uni, so I attended a bachelor's course of computer science. But in that one year I was away from work. I really noticed that I'm a doer and that I don't really like to study and never touch anything real living. And that's like happening in the real world. So I decided to quit university and I had the luck to be able to join back in this operator where I was working.

Karl H (00:03:27) - But this time I joined in the developer team. So backend development, managing, you know, the different systems and that's really where, um, meta vision kind of like took life in a sense or where it started because I saw all of these legacy systems within the operator and all these complex processes and that's kind of where, um, where I decided to start venturing into the space of telecom tech and service provider software, let's say. Yeah. And just for a super quick introduction and then I'll give back to you. Meta vision essentially is kind of a a, a new take on the traditional business support systems and operational support systems that you see traditionally in operators. And we're trying to to give it a fresh spin, a bit of youth, bit of innovation, circling back a.

Leon Hardwick (00:04:26) - Little more with the like, you know, everybody chucks around, okay, we're a provider or whatever, and it could mean multiple things to multiple people. But I do get from the, I guess, the messaging you're putting out there and the way that you're doing things that, you know, you really want to kind of straighten this thing out and, um, be a bit more pragmatic about it.

Leon Hardwick (00:04:51) - So, you know, talking about your experience, right, So you're a doer. And quite frankly, some of the most successful and wealthy, uh, entrepreneurs, you know, all went through that college process of kind of going, Oh, I just want to be back in the world and building stuff. So you've got that in common with some of the most famous people in the world. But what were the things that you saw that kind of. I suppose, pissed you off or irritated you or sort of got you thinking, why? Why does it have to work this way? What are the key things that sort of drove you down the road of trying to build something new? And I guess, you know, was there a kind of aha moment where you went, okay, think we should do this?

Karl H (00:05:30) - So I think that's a really good segue in this part of the podcast. So actually I was known for my questions in the company, so I was always called the like the Y man in the company.

Karl H (00:05:44) - I, I still am a firm believer of the, the five W's. And if you don't ask at least three times about the same thing and get different answers, then you don't know why something is going on or why it has been decided a certain way. I must say I was pretty lucky in the working in this specific operator that the propensity to to change and innovation was there since even before I was there. So there weren't really too many things that pissed me off per se. The one thing I think that really. That really changed my my look on this industry was that. Within the operator. We always had our own solutions and we kind of like chugged along by making our things ourselves. But at some point that came to a plateau and we decided to venture off and kind of see what was out there in the market. And all these solutions we came across were either too expensive, way too overkill, or both, or even worse. They were they were working worse than what we had already built in-house.

Karl H (00:06:53) - And that's when I, I thought about it and I was like, well, why can't we just take what we already have, supercharge it, rebuild it from scratch with, you know, today's standards and kind of approach the market? Because when I was talking with peers from other companies and competitors, they were kind of all struggling. They were all pissed off with their software and their siloed systems. Yeah, but no one had a real solution. And to your question as well, one thing that really drives me nuts is all of these telecom executives and and vice presidents that are just in awe and just bamboozled by whatever the big vendors are saying to them. And there's like, oh, we should do this and that. But they don't. It's not their fault most of the times, but they kind of have lost touch about what is really needed in their business. And when I was working and still kind of am to a certain degree in this operator. I had the like ability since it wasn't such a huge company to really see from start to finish what was going on in the processes.

Karl H (00:08:01) - I could see the customers calling, I could see the packages leaving the warehouse and I could see the services being provisioned right. And that that level of insight, probably a lot of vice presidents or executives, they don't have that right. They don't have time for that. And and there are companies don't. Don't have a room. They don't have room for them to be able to see that kind of detail.

Leon Hardwick (00:08:24) - Yeah, it's interesting because a few years back there was a Canadian operator that brought in a new CEO and I guess he sort of presented a 30, 60, 90 day plan. And part of the the first 30 days was like. Putting himself in the shoes of the folks that he works for. Essentially the folks across the business. And, you know, he went to customer services and took customer cause he went to it and he went to the warehouse. And then the guys that were doing the provisioning out in the field and stuff and everybody thought this was nuts, but it was probably the most pragmatic thing he could have done to get into the nuts and bolts of the business.

Leon Hardwick (00:09:03) - And it just surprises me. Not many people do that, especially like that middle chunk, that director level and think a lot of them, you know, I would imagine that that's changed quite a bit over the last, I don't know, five years.

Karl H (00:09:17) - Let's hope so.

Leon Hardwick (00:09:18) - I hope so. Yeah. Because it gives you like a reality check on, you know, what you're there for and think it adds it adds a level of pragmatism to how you do things. So you've you've seen it from the inside and you've seen all these different functions, um, delivering for the customer. And, you know, you guys have developed something that sort of irons out a lot of these bottlenecks. But what do you see kind of broadly in telco aside from what you just mentioned, which is, you know, that sort of maybe arm's length middle management approach, what else have you seen in telco that you think, okay, needs a little bit of a a fresh approach or a new way of thinking? Um, I I'll start.

Leon Hardwick (00:10:04) - I think one of the key things, bringing fresh younger folks into telco because, um, you go to any of these events and you, and I've actually talked about this, I'm, I'm an old fart now. I'm 42. Right?

Karl H (00:10:18) - So. But you're already in like, you're even one of the youngest as well.

Leon Hardwick (00:10:21) - I am one of the younger. So if you look in telco, you've got to you got a mobile Congress or whatever. And and I mentioned it in one of my, um, blogs and newsletters and stuff. It is getting old. And you talk to recruiters, they also say it's very hard to attract and retain younger folks in telco. That, for me is one of the biggest problems. What are your thoughts on where telco is and and key kind of issues that maybe a like causing problems for for telco as an industry?

Karl H (00:10:49) - Yes, that's a really good, good question. Again. And Leon, today you're you're really hitting hitting the right notes with your questions. Um well well I always like comparing.

Karl H (00:11:00) - So one thing I will try to reiterate again over and try trying to bring bring in as much contact context as possible. The operator I've been working with is pretty small in the Swiss market. But if someone would ask me why they're still standing strong in today's economy, one of one of the key elements that I would like probably that I would bring up is that we've taken they have taken kind of as early adopters, they've taken on the shift of going away from pure. Telco to being more of a tech. Co Yeah. And and adopting more like having like developers. User experience designers, UI and designers as well. And kind of like being more focused on the technology powering the network and, and like delivering the service to the customers rather than just focusing on like network and infrastructure and just purchasing software and then getting bombarded by vendors telling them what to do and but not talking with the customer. Right. And to answer your question, what I've seen now is slowly I've seen some operators going more down that route.

Karl H (00:12:16) - And this also spurs innovation and makes it so that younger generations are more attracted to joining these kinds of businesses. Because if you probably ask the majority of young people today and ask them like, what is a telecom operator for you, number one, they would probably not know what that is. Yeah. And if you explain it to them, they're like, Oh, it doesn't look so interesting. Like managing these sturdy antennas and and cables in the street. Right. Wouldn't probably be so intuitively, like something that you'd be interested in. Um. Those are the main points. And then again, the telco.

Leon Hardwick (00:13:00) - The telco to Tesco. Point. Um, you know there is a lot of there is a lot of, I guess, um. Hyper hyperbolic messaging around telco. Sort of hot air, right? It's like we want to shift in this direction and we, you know, and think I think there is a there is definitely a drive to go in that direction. Um, but it's more than just the message and it's more than just, you know, talking about it.

Leon Hardwick (00:13:35) - I think a lot of companies, a lot of the big operators are looking at you mentioned innovation. They have innovation teams. They're looking at bringing bringing more companies into their organization, diversifying the supply chain a little bit so they're not reliant on all the the big vendors. But in other countries, Germany in particular, you see it going in a different direction. You know, they're outsourcing a lot of the technical functions to these large companies, which, you know, again, also all have this cyclical, um, these sort of life cycles really, that, that, that go around and then come around. But that's still, you know, all those things still, you know, from what I can see and this is anecdotal right doesn't retain the younger folks um, in those jobs and those large companies. And quite often I'll, I'll go and talk to an operator. I'll meet, you know, a director of VP level person and they'll bring their team and you see some really great young, talented folks in those discussions offering real value.

Leon Hardwick (00:14:40) - But then 3 or 4 months later, six months later, they're not there anymore. Um, and so, yeah, something's got to change. And I think if that outward view is not enough, um, really the proof is in the pudding. Like, you know, I think they've got to really start to embrace the buy versus build think, you know, rather than sort of working with those traditional.

Karl H (00:15:02) - Yeah, true, true. You're right. Yeah. Because managing, I mean managing these, these legacy I mean this is one thing that's really like near and dear to my heart because the solution we've built is really great. But the problem now I'm facing, or at least that I'm seeing, is it's not that easy to to sell or to to show to some kind like a certain kind of operator or telecom Internet provider, because they're just so stuck up with their old systems and especially maybe even like older employees that are like bound to this, you know, they just know how to work that and they have always only worked on that.

Karl H (00:15:45) - So why should they now age 50? Learn what meta vision is with their connectors and stuff and oh, but don't want to manage my my microservice and what's that. Right. Um it is it's.

Leon Hardwick (00:16:01) - Yeah you.

Karl H (00:16:01) - It is.

Leon Hardwick (00:16:02) - You segway into kind of second part of my lines of questioning. So we talked about the problems facing telco and I think there's that real injection of youth and sort of different thinking. Um, and we've also got a they've also got to start thinking slightly differently from telco to Tesco, but it shifts into a different thing, right? So if, if they do those things and they and they start outwardly becoming more, uh, I guess conducive for young folks to work in those environments, they then they've got to kind of maybe also think differently about how they engage companies, especially smaller companies. And it's one of the problems I've found. It's one of the things I'm trying to solve with with handshake. But one of the problems I've found it's incredibly difficult on both sides, right? So there might be a will in a large organization and there might be a great solution, But getting those two sides to consensus is really tough in telco is probably one of the hardest.

Leon Hardwick (00:16:56) - You've got 18 months to two year sales cycles and stuff like that. Don't say.

Karl H (00:17:00) - It.

Leon Hardwick (00:17:01) - Right. So. So how are you going about it? Like just just out of interest. And you said it's tough and you are struggling with it, but what are the things you're trying and what have you found to be more successful so far?

Karl H (00:17:13) - Yeah, that's a good question. So there are actually 2 or 3 main ways I'm going about it. So the first one is definitely I've seen that networking and like being out there is one, one aspect I think we're both trying to persuade. Um, I think that opportunity just doesn't come out of luck and it doesn't come if you don't chase it. Therefore, I think that's one aspect, like trying to produce as much as possible opportunities by going to events and writing on LinkedIn and these kind of things. Then there is a second pillar which is, um, I have a few contacts in the telecom space, fortunately. So I'm trying to like build, kind of like.

Karl H (00:17:58) - A construct of contacts. I have to just start building, you know, awareness about our brand and our solution inside of certain operators and different kind of groups and business units. And the third is cold and simple cold outreach, trying to generate networking effects by myself without going to events or or being introduced to people, which is definitely the hardest because I kid you not. Our solution is, is really huge because we're trying to tackle this kind of market which needs these kinds of solutions, but it's hard to find the person that knows what we're doing because the domain is so big that probably in a lot of companies would have to talk with many different stakeholders. So knowing what to tell the first person I'm speaking to is not easy because usually you have one shot and one opportunity, and if they don't understand, you're basically screwed, right? That's hard.

Leon Hardwick (00:19:03) - Yeah, it is super hard. And you think you're going about it the right way and think the perseverance is a big thing, right? A lot of these a lot of these big guys want to know that you're going to be around in six months, eight months, 12 months, five years.

Leon Hardwick (00:19:14) - Right. So, um, you know, going through the sales process is kind of a part of like, I wouldn't say this is official part of the process, but going through that long winded process is, is is almost like earning your stripes with these guys. It shouldn't be that way. Right? But it it kind of is that way and it's it's it's just grinding it out. Some of this stuff is just not easy at all. It just takes time. Um, but it would be nice if folks were a little bit more open minded about, you know, what's out there. That's my probably my biggest thing is over the years I've been selling for 20 odd years now. But I think sometimes you do get people that are very closed off and the world has changed a bit. So you do have to be quite creative about your messaging and stuff. And I think you guys are right. So think you do a lot of really good stuff online and hopefully these things help as well so we can get people to hear what you have to say.

Leon Hardwick (00:20:08) - Yeah, but it is a grind. The whole B2B enterprise sale is is super challenging.

Karl H (00:20:14) - And to circle back on your point, now that you're bringing these things up, it definitely doesn't help that I'm 22 close to turning 23 because when I'm starting to speak with these people and I explain what we're doing, they can't really conceptualize how. In their head. They can't really understand how the picture of me. Young not even have a beard. Right. How how that fits in with me talking about their stack and OSS and all these orchestration things, and they can't really put it together so that that also creates some kind of, um. Don't know, distancing. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah.

Leon Hardwick (00:20:56) - They experienced that. Has that actually been something that you've experienced in one time?

Karl H (00:21:01) - It was like it was verbally, like said, but you're just 22. What do you know about X and Y operator Like you don't. And it was pretty, like, rude. Don't don't want to go into details, but it was like, you don't understand.

Karl H (00:21:16) - This is so complicated. And obviously I didn't want to, you know, counter and counter by saying I've been developing the solution for for two and a half years. Right. I just let it go. But most of the times it's something you probably you know, it's one of these things you just feel in the air.

Leon Hardwick (00:21:33) - There are there always going to be folks out there that aren't open minded enough. And, um, there's a lot of people that respect gray hair when it probably shouldn't be that way. Um. But there are lots of others that like to talk to exciting young folks that have a different point of view and different perspective on the world. And that is, for me, one of the most important things in telco that we've got to keep folks like you involved.

Karl H (00:22:05) - Yeah. And when you keep it like stay in front on the forefront of innovation because we're the ones powering it in a sense, if you think about telco, what would the world be today without Internet? Right? We need to stay ahead.

Leon Hardwick (00:22:18) - Yeah, yeah, I'm totally with you. And it's almost become like, you know, telco has become this sort of utility. It's that important. It's as important as, you know, water, electricity, etcetera. Um, the pandemic kind of really proved that and brought that to the front of our minds. But, um, retaining folks like yourself in this industry means that we need people to be a bit more open minded. So I hope. The whole point of this podcast is to get you some visibility, but be to get people to hear that you're a super astute guy and you know, you know, you know the space and you've got a really great solution that can help. So yeah, hopefully that'll help. Um, so in terms of, um, you know, it is difficult going to go into market and telco. Um, it is difficult when, you know, people have these kind of perceptions and misconceptions of, you know, folks that are pitching to them. Um, one of the things I was curious about and I'm switching gears a little bit, is, um, you started out very early, Um, and I think that's a family link in telco.

Leon Hardwick (00:23:25) - So tell me a little bit about the family business.

Karl H (00:23:27) - Yes. So that's, that's a good segue. A good question again. Um, so actually the I was it's kind of like these stories, you know, of like the, the child growing to the, like, family circus kind of business. And he, like, starts jumping around. And so I was born basically with a computer, um, because my parents launched a telecom operator in 96. They started with dial up and, and then they ventured off into PSTN and then Adsl, Adsl two plus Vdsl kind of everything basically. Um, and therefore, even before starting to work, I always was like hearing and like hearing chatter about this stuff. And my dad was going to events. I was always in the office. Um, doesn't always make it easy because you can definitely rest assured that when I started as an apprentice, my colleagues didn't really give me an easy time just because I actually think it was the opposite. Everyone wanted to like show me that I didn't know what was going on and that I had to kind of like earn my merit and being in the team.

Karl H (00:24:33) - And yeah, so that's kind of the link. And, and, and at four years ago, I kind of decided to go about my own ways and say, All right, I learned enough, let me try something myself. Now, obviously our family business needed a change. That's why we made the software. But one thing that also could be interesting is. Um, our operator. Family operator didn't just sell Internet. And one problem that I've seen when I was evaluating other solutions before deciding to go about my way with meta vision was that there are a lot of systems and software solutions in place that are really good in like one vertical Internet broadband service, right? Or mobile, MVNO, whatever. But then when you're starting to search for something where you can combine both things or do a quadruple play offering or even start offering hosting and all these things. The world around you starts crumbling and then you only basically have two solutions or options. Either spend a hell of a lot of money in a super customized vendor specific solution or you build your own solution.

Karl H (00:25:45) - Yeah, and both of these options are super expensive. Nowadays you lose minimum four years to develop one. Doesn't matter how much money you have. And I can proudly say that we managed to kind of solve this with better vision in these three and a half, four years. And we didn't make the solution just for our operator. We actually took the majority of the time to abstract away as much as possible and kind of like. Think about our operator as like one possible customer and not just make the solution. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

Leon Hardwick (00:26:23) - And you've learned the history of telco because you've been brought up with it and you started work really early, so you got an equivalent amount of experience to a lot of the middle management folks around in the industry. Right? So, so that makes a huge. So and that's the thing. Like you understand the history and then you've taken that and build something meaningful across all the different tech that's lightweight that can be deployed easily. So that's, that's really cool.

Leon Hardwick (00:26:49) - I think the other thing I want to maybe point out is I obviously mentioned that at the event as well. So he's super supportive. Yes. He's like your number one. He's definitely your number one fan, which is awesome. Um, so tell me a little bit about your interest outside of telco and vision. So I know you're based in Switzerland, which is an awesome place to live for a reasons. So tell us a little bit about yourself outside of outside of telco. Think you've got a few really interesting. Yeah. Pastimes.

Karl H (00:27:23) - Yeah. So as, as someone might be able to imagine from the first 30 minutes of knowing to knowing me, I'm a person that likes to be busy, which is a blessing and a curse at the same time because I can never stay standstill and not do anything which is, as I just said, not so easy sometimes. But yeah, for for anyone looking at my LinkedIn profile. I am a private pilot, so that's, that's been my biggest. And actually let's spend a bit of time on this.

Karl H (00:27:59) - That's been my biggest kind of way of venting or not thinking about business. Because for anyone that's ever flown in a private general aviation plane either flying it actively as a pilot or sitting there with a friend, that's really, truly one of the only places where I can be, where nothing else matters. But not only because I love it, but because literally, if I think about something else, I'm dead. Right? Exactly. So it's kind of like a place. It's like my safe space where when I'm flying, I literally cannot think about motivation. I can't think about the operator, cannot think about anything else because I'm focused on the mission. Right. Flying from A to B or just around. And also the whole experience of like, you know, Leon, you'd say, Oh, that's so cool. You can fly your plane, so you can go anywhere like really fast. But I thought I thought about that as well before being a private pilot. But once you are one, it's not that easy anymore because you need to plan the flight and that takes like two hours, even if it's like a 30 minute flight.

Karl H (00:29:07) - So at the end of the day, you're not really faster than a car. It's just that you're not standing still in like traffic or something. But it takes like a lot of work.

Leon Hardwick (00:29:16) - So how often do you get out and sort of where do you go? Are you doing like figure of eights or circles around a particular region? Or tell us a little bit about that.

Karl H (00:29:26) - Yeah. So the legal minimum in Switzerland to fly to keep your license is 20 hours a year, right? I know that might sound shocking because mean 20 like think about doing some one thing for 20 hours a year. Yeah that's and then feeling safe about it. Right. I think there wouldn't be anything. So I try to fly at least once a week. Yeah. And in these flights it depends on the weather. And like today it doesn't really, you know, we didn't really pick a nice day for the pod because it it's not like the Swiss weather people are used to. But in a day like this, I would probably just do some exercises around the eardrum.

Karl H (00:30:02) - And then there are other days where the the weather is nicer, where I'd be maybe flying to the French part of Switzerland or flying to the Cote d'Azur, like Genoa or or, you know, Cannes friend like the French Riviera. That's pretty close. That's like an hour of flight time. Um. Yeah. Mean that it really depends on the day and what I feel.

Leon Hardwick (00:30:26) - And what sort of equipment are you flying? What's the.

Karl H (00:30:30) - Um. So the airplane that I'm rated now currently is a diamond A40. So you can imagine it's just like a four seater airplane that, that has a minimum takeoff weight, maximum takeoff, weight of around 900kg. 800kg. Right. Yeah. And that's what I fly. Flies at around 140 knots, 130 knots, which is around 200 something kilometers per hour. Super. Um, yeah, but it's nice and it definitely gets me out of the, like, the rat race of working.

Leon Hardwick (00:31:04) - Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I can't imagine a more exciting, uh, I guess rush And a more definitive thing to get your head out of work.

Leon Hardwick (00:31:17) - I mean, it must be superb, but taxing at the same time, like you said, you know, you've got it.

Karl H (00:31:21) - Is, Yes. Yeah. Like I found I can't fly in the afternoons if I've worked because I just I'm not I don't feel I'm on power to be able to fly well. Right. So that's usually something I do in the mornings or during the weekends.

Leon Hardwick (00:31:35) - Yeah. And then when you're not flying, what else are you up to? I mean, you've got so much to, to do out there.

Karl H (00:31:41) - And I have a motorbike, I have a Husqvarna Super, super Moto 700 CC bike. Um, yeah, at least once a year. I try to go with one of my best friends to like travel for a week. On on the bike. This year I'll be going to Croatia. Um, for a week.

Leon Hardwick (00:32:01) - But if an adrenaline adrenaline junkie, then.

Karl H (00:32:05) - Yeah, I mean, for that I would have probably had to say that I fly a helicopter, not an airplane.

Leon Hardwick (00:32:10) - I'm not a fan of helicopters. I have to say, it's not something I particularly fancy doing so much adrenaline. I spent so much time on on big planes over the years. Um, I grew to not like flying, I have to say, but I still have an underlying. Drive to try a small prop plane. Right. But one day, not not now. It was too much to do at the moment. Um, so.

Karl H (00:32:38) - Leon never, never be stuck in saying that, because otherwise it's never going to be a good moment. Yeah, you're going to regret it.

Leon Hardwick (00:32:45) - There is a small airfield here and they offer, you know, little, um, pleasure flights. You can go up with an instructor and stuff. It didn't cost a huge amount of money. I might do that, you know, in the next six months or so.

Karl H (00:32:58) - Definitely.

Leon Hardwick (00:32:59) - Weather permitting around where we live here in Cardiff. So yeah, we'll see. But it's good that you've got that outlet. Um, it's, you know, it's one of those things we talk to other folks on the pod about because, you know, a lot of people we talk to are in fairly high profile jobs, very high pressure jobs, and we do like to get a feel for what they get up to outside.

Leon Hardwick (00:33:20) - It's, you know, interesting to folks that listen in. Yes. Kind of helps them figure out what what they might like. So next time I'm in Switzerland, it'd be great to go out with you. Um.

Karl H (00:33:29) - Why not?

Leon Hardwick (00:33:30) - A couple of final questions before we wrap up. So final question. So you are the CEO of Meta Vision. You have this omni provisioning, um, solution that looks at, um, billing customer self-service portals. You've got a product catalog, it's super quick and easy to deploy. It's, it's meant to be lightweight. It looks across all these different technologies. You guys are looking for an opportunity, right? You want to work with a telco. What would be the ideal scenario? Who do you want to work with and and where? And just give us some kind of, you know, like flavor and hopefully you can find somebody for you.

Karl H (00:34:12) - Absolutely. So we're not restricted to any geography at the moment. We've built the solution in a way that enables us to basically work anywhere.

Karl H (00:34:22) - Because one thing, for example, that differentiates a lot us a lot from the competition is we don't. One thing that is important to operators is billing and invoicing and accounting. And we basically have a standard to connect to any kind of ERP solution to do that. That way we're not bound to a specific like template of invoice or some standard. That's one thing which is usually asked for, which is really important. So we can work anywhere. And there are two main cases that are that I'm looking at. The first one is operators looking to launch a new brand. So like a greenfield kind of scenario, which is I think the easiest to validate our offering and to see the value because, you know, if you're starting a new brand, you probably don't really want to set up a huge team and have a lot of overhead. We can definitely drive value there. Second thing is, don't know, just a pilot project to evaluate us, put us against the status quo and and see how we can maybe slowly replace some processes or some customer segments within an operator.

Karl H (00:35:28) - Because I do understand, given the fact that we kind of are in this utility space, that you can't really change everything in a night. Software that you rely on to make money and to actually deliver services. Um, and yeah, you basically said everything in terms of we have the tagline Omni provisioning. We trademarked that because we really truly believe in that an operator today should be able to offer any kind of service service anywhere, um, and with flexibility in mind. So that's how omni provisioning comes into play. And yeah, as you said, billing product catalog, which is important. So you connect these services in an abstract manner and then your product managers can just manage the catalog, the technical specification, without even having to code anything in our system, then pushes everything via API to self-service portals, etcetera, without the need of changing them. So if you have a new bundle, it's just going to be visible and you don't have to pay us professional services and the millions to make that render a little change.

Leon Hardwick (00:36:35) - Awesome. Love that. And you guys are willing to put your, your your um, guess your money where your mouths are by like, you know, proving this out up against some of the legacy stuff. So that's awesome. Yes all I'll say anybody listening that's in this in this market that wants to look at a change, uh, definitely get in touch with Carl. Carl, how do people find you? Where can they find you? What are your socials? I'll tag them all in the pod notes, but give us a shout out and tell me.

Karl H (00:37:04) - All right. So, um. Well, the easiest is obviously just on going on LinkedIn searching for Carl Heinz franchisor or Carl Franchisor. Um, and I think that's the main point. I'll give you a link, Leon, that you can put in in the podcast where people can just get my contact card, my contact info. Awesome. So they can reach out to me. Definitely.

Leon Hardwick (00:37:27) - We'll do that and make sure that everybody's got your details.

Leon Hardwick (00:37:30) - Um, and last question before we let you go. Who would you like us to talk to next? Is there someone you think we should be speaking to on the pod that you could introduce us to? That we can we can have a good conversation with? Who do you think we should talk to?

Karl H (00:37:48) - That's a difficult question. You put me on the spot, Leon. Um, I am thinking maybe it could be interesting to. The reverse. Finding a young person. I'm. I'm so sorry. Finding a young person. Working in one of these big telcos.

Leon Hardwick (00:38:11) - Okay, Got it. Done. That is a good That's a good suggestion. I like it. Um, I will find someone. It'll be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. But I will find someone and we'll put them on. And actually, I'll connect you guys up as well.

Karl H (00:38:26) - Why not?

Leon Hardwick (00:38:27) - Definitely leave that with me and listeners. Um, don't forget, that's the that's the the target that Carla set up.

Leon Hardwick (00:38:35) - So we'll, we'll see if we can figure that out over the next few, few episodes. Um, Karl, super interesting to talk to you like said to everybody at the beginning, you know, I think you bring like creativity and a bit of a fresh approach to telco. And, you know, I wish you all the best with your company and prospects and hope the pod gets you a bit of visibility and finds you that really good opportunity as well. Um, regardless, it's been great to talk to you and um, yeah, good luck with it all.

Karl H (00:39:07) - Yeah, thanks a lot, Leon. Definitely can't just basically say what you've said again, back to you. Good luck with handshake and all the best to you as well. Thanks for having me.

Leon Hardwick (00:39:17) - Thank you. Take care.